7. On another occasion you returned from Scotland to find two animal hearts on your doorstep. What was that all about?

In the back yes, but that’s a whole other story. I’m not sure whether it was advice or a warning but I think it was one of the two.

A Message: One of the Animal Hearts left on Rats Door Step

Does it ever feel like there’s someone who thinks you’re getting too close to something?

No, not really. I think I’ve been viewed as someone who can be a convenient pawn, and I can be used to gain access to other things…

8. Your relationship with Henry Lincoln goes back over a quarter a century. I imagine you are relatively close.

Well I drove him around a lot and we spent quite a lot of time together, especially during the Dan Brown The Da Vinci Code trial. Henry’s like a rock star, he’s had a lot of success and fame and he’s done a billion interviews and he’s been asked questions non-stop. I suppose because of my music background I understand how people in that situation tend to react and how they kind of feel about things. He’d try out his lectures in the car on the way to a meeting and stuff, and in turn I’d usually pick his brain for whatever my interest was at the time. He’s told me a lot of stuff.

Rat with Henry Lincoln

9. Tell us about your contact in the US who engineered devices that have been planted around Rennes-le-Château and Mt. Bugarach

The weird thing for me is the belief that there is a giant UFO buried in the field next to Bugarach.

Why somebody would go to all the trouble of burying a giant UFO in a field?  It doesn’t really add up to me. If you’re going to hide it you’re going to take it to a hanger somewhere. You’re not going to bury it. There are lots of stories of people feeling very strange while they’re in that area. I was talking to somebody who worked for an independent company that developed engines, and one of the engines that was developed was a very large circular electro-magnetic. I mean he did tell me more…

The sacred mountain of Burgarach – near Rennes-le-Château

The description of it is a large UFO that has to be buried because of safety issues stemming from the pulses that are generated by this experimental energy. The description he gave me really does match the Elisabeth Van Buren story. They’re big, they’re circular, they’re always buried, and people get ill if they’re near them.

10. Now that’s really weird. Listen, as one of the few people (to date) to have seen the Bloodline documentary, tell us what you thought?

I enjoyed it! It was very balanced. I was expecting it to be quite biased and somewhat opinionated, which it wasn’t, thankfully.

So it was convincing?

It depends how much faith you put in their witnesses to be honest, Gino Sandri and others. I’m not at all convinced he is the head of the Priory of Sion. There are things in the film that suggest that Bruce (Burgess) is being watched constantly by another group, and it suggests that Sandri isn’t in fact the head of the Priory of Sion. I’ve signed a non-disclosure, so I need to be careful what I say – sorry…

But you think it’s pretty good?

I think it’s good to watch and I think when you’re a hungry Rennie, any new kind of information is really welcome, even if it is dismissed in the end. You’ll like it!

11. As a mate of Ben Hammott, and someone who has seen some of the artefacts first hand, and who just visited him in Rennes-le-Château - what do you make of his discoveries?

There’s something about Ben that I find very sincere. What do you think of him?

I like him. He’s put himself in Harm’s Way, he’s come to your Rennes night at the Griffin, he’s been out with us and a couple of people who have been, well not confrontational, but very direct with him, and he seems to handle it all very well. He never gets defensive.

Rat first meets Ben Hammott at the Spring 2007 Rennes Group in Oxford
From left to right: Lynn Picknett, Rat, Guy Patton and Ben Hammott

As you know, when we had dinner with Ben and (Rennes-le-Château researcher) Bill Kersey I was more interested in the nut and bolt things like ‘how did you happen to have the camera turned on when it fell into the tomb? What kind of camera was it? Why were you in that cave anyway? How did you get it back?’ You know? those sorts of questions.

Rat contemplates the merits of Ben Hammott’s alleged discovery - London
L to R: Filip Coppens, Rat, Ben Hammott, Sandy Hamblett and Bill Kersey

It’s the details that are the tricky bit and the only thing you can do is to keep asking the same questions over and compare the answers you get. At one point I even directly said ‘are you making it up? Are you lying?’ And the lie detector I had at the Griffin night, I have to say it stayed green the whole time he was talking.

Ben Hammott at Rat's RLC 2nd Rennes-le-Château Night
Rat made Ben speak into a Lie Detector the entire night

12. Moving on – what then do you think Saunière discovered – if anything?

I think there is irrefutable evidence to suggest that he found a physical treasure. The priests in that area were all abnormally wealthy. They couldn’t all be taking money for masses. To be honest, finding something down there and the lads working out a way to knock it out really doesn’t seem far fetched to me. At the same time Jean-Luc Robin will talk a lot about the Hapsburgs and the paperwork which would have allowed the royal dynasty to hold onto certain lands and titles that they felt were worth having. That is also very possible.

So do you think he found something heretical?

You see the difficult part is this: the Catholic Church knows what it would regard as a heresy is in actual fact a truth, but it isn’t a public truth, and thus they regard it as a heresy. You see you are only a heretic because it’s what the other side calls you because you don’t believe in their beliefs, their indoctrination, and their school of thought. If you like, they’re zealots.

13. Ok, for the following characters tell me if you think they were a player of pawn in the mystery – just one word – player or pawn:

So that settles it – The Bishops count as two votes and sway the balance. The Players win, 7-6…

No – it’s too close to call. You know, in a very real sense, the point is that everything Henry published came from Gerard de Sède. Henry brought the subject to the public, but at the same time - in terms of the mystery - he’s not a player in as such. He’s an observer, if anything. Henry will always tell you he’s a journalist, that’s what he does.

By the way my favourite geometry guy is actually Ashley Cowie, I think he knows his stuff. I really like his attitude. Henry’s geometry isn’t perfect, especially when you compare it to the work that David Woods did. That was incredibly accurate. But you see it is all to do with Henry’s role. Henry might not agree with this, but his real role in the whole Rennes-le-Château thing has been that of the sign-post, the person who says ‘have you seen this?’

He always says ‘Don’t believe a word of it’, meaning go check it yourself…

Yeah, like most good researchers as soon as you come up with something new they tell you its rubbish.

14. What do you think of the current Mayor of Rennes-le-Château and who do you think will be the next mayor?

The funny thing with the mayor is in the village the atmosphere has changed and people don’t seem comfortable like they once were.  They’re not happy living day to day and I think the mayor is part of that. I think he’s had a destabilizing affect on the population as a whole, and I also have a very strong opinion that outsiders shouldn’t be trying to make decisions on what effectively is their village; where they live. We may very well want it renovated back to exactly how it was in Saunière’s day so we can still go there for a week a year and gawp opened mouthed and go ‘I wish I knew what it all meant,’ but the real truth is the population of very real people have to live, work and survive in that environment.

The current Mayor of Rennes-le-Château: Jean-François Lhuillier

I think Antoine Captier would be quite good. I think it’s a very demanding job. I don’t think it’s as simple as people think. I don’t think you just sit there sipping wine saying thanks for the money. I think there’s a lot more to it, so I think it needs somebody with a lot of strength and energy to be able to deal with all of the various dilemmas that I’m sure turn up on a weekly basis in that place, but yeah, I think it must be somebody that is known to everybody and who’s trusted.

15. What pisses you off most about Rennes-le-Château?

I find the arrogance of some of the researchers quite astounding, and the factual manner in which they tell you this tenuous crock of shit that is supposed to convince you that they have discovered a tunnel leading to the treasure, you know?

Well don’t waste my time in the bar telling me about it go and dig the mother fucker up and show it to me. You know?

I’m not interested in you convincing me what the double M means.

I find the best question in Rennes le Chateau is ‘why?’. ’Oh look the double M symbol, that’s really important. Why’s it important?’ Then they go all quiet and fuck off cause the truth is they don’t have a clue.

16. I agree. So what do you make of the people, who shall remain nameless, who say there is absolutely no mystery in Rennes-le-Château, none whatsoever?

I think that’s a very narrow minded way of looking at it because there quite clearly is a mystery. Let’s forget flying saucers, sacred geometry and secret societies for the time being, let’s just look at Berenger Saunière.

17. In 50 years time what will be your legacy – heading up the first Punk band in history or being the hero of a great book about Rennes-le-Château?

Personally I’d like it to be the book, but sadly it’ll be that bloke who set fire to his drums …

That’s not a bad legacy…

I never even thought I’d make a record, I never thought I’d get any of the places I have and I’ll always be grateful for that. I did better than I thought I would, but at the same time you have to keep looking.

Most hobbies and past-times are pretty dull, while some can be rather dangerous; you’re endangering your life hand-gliding or parachuting or abseiling. The thing about Rennes-le-Château is that it’s nice and gentle, but with this wonderful sinister quality that lurks in the background; legends of murders and assassinations with secret societies.

The beauty is you don’t have to get too close. You can observe quite comfortably from a distance. And there’s something about the safety of the armchair when you’re reading about Noel Corbu (the business man who purchased Sauniere’s estate from Maria) being driven off the road to his death. You want to know more, but you know it isn’t going to come through the window and getcha, and that’s good.

Ya I like that aspect of it too. Excellent stuff Rat. Cheers. And best of luck in all future Grail quests. And be sure to watch out for low flying griffins.

Rat – at the Griffin Pub in Brentford on the night of our interview

Thanks Andy. Now I think it’s your round…..

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